Ageless Athlete - Longevity Insights From Adventure Sports Legends
Uncensored and deep conversations with extraordinary rock climbers, runners, surfers, alpinists, kayakers and skiers et al. Tap into their journey to peak performance, revealing stories, hidden strategies, and the mindset that defies aging and other limits.
Get educated and inspired to chase your own dreams. Come for the stories, leave with tools, tips, and motivation! Hosted by Kush Khandelwal.
Ageless Athlete - Longevity Insights From Adventure Sports Legends
#17 Caroline Paul - From Firefighting to Wing Walking, Transforming Fear into Awe
Caroline Paul, a true renaissance woman, has spent her life shattering stereotypes and embracing adventure.
- Embrace awe 🧘♀️ It can lower inflammation, boost positivity.
- Assess real risks 🤷♂️ We often blow them out of proportion.
- Find accountability buddies 🫂 They add fun, community, motivation!
- Expand your comfort zone 💪 Small steps upend expectations.
- Seek novelty 🏔 It's key for health, happiness and longevity.
Resources:
Caroline Paul on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/carolinembpaul/
Tough Broad: From Boogie Boarding to Wing Walking, How Outdoor Adventure Improves Our Lives as We Age: [online or your favorite bookstore!]
The Gutsy Girl: [online or your favorite bookstore!]
Dacher Keltner's Book on Awe: [Link to purchase book]
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Folks welcome back to the ageless athlete podcast. This is your host Kush Condell. Well, Broadcasting from San Francisco, California. Bringing you stories of age, defying, genre, defying adventure athletes. Doing extraordinary things. In the outdoors. It's gorgeous here today. Spent some time at the beach this morning with my cute pup Rodger, and I am feeling quite fortified. Are you ready to be inspired today on ageless athlete? We have a true Renaissance woman, Caroline pod. A former firefighter who battled blazes in San Francisco, California. Caroline's adventurous spirit has taken her from the remote landscapes of Siberia to the dizzying Heights of the Bolivian Andes. braving blizzards on Denali. Her tourist for new experiences led her to become a pilot. Uh, surfer and even of in Walker, And as an author, she has spent numerous books, including the New York times bestseller. The gutsy girl. And our latest, incredible book. Def bride. Which explores the transformative power of outer adventures. For women as the age. We will be diving into her. Beautiful journey. The inspiring women she's met and how getting outside can redefine our expectations and lead to a more fulfilling life. So buckle up and get ready for an exciting conversation with the one and only Caroline Paul. I really appreciate you tuning in today. If you have enjoyed the journey so far would love it. If you dropped a little rating. Click the star icon and apple podcast or wherever else, like Spotify, you listen to your body. Trust me, it really helps get the word out and it helps support the show. Now onwards with the pot. It's rote. Hi Caroline. Great to have you on the show. Can you tell us where are you right now? Where are you from? And what did you have for breakfast today?
Caroline:Oh, hi, Kush. I'm so psyched to be on the show. I am in San Francisco. I had coffee this morning and. I'm from the East Coast. I was born in New York City. but I'm a New Englander at heart. Northwest corner of Connecticut. Very rural.
Kush:From the right coast to the best coast. I just discovered your lovely book, Tough Broad, and I've been, hooked. I want to start off by asking you to take us back to the time you rode into Yosemite on an electric skateboard. I've traveled through the gate, check at Yosemite National Park, numerous, I don't know, maybe a hundred times over the last 15 or so years, but, you blew my mind with your creativity in getting past the entry system. Would you mind giving us a peek into what transpired that day?
Caroline:Yeah, I'll quickly tell you I was going actually for my first interview for Tough Broad, and I got to the gate and it was the pandemic. And so there were the rules had changed and you needed a reservation, which was fine. I, I had the, my friend had sent me the reservation. It was on my phone, but the very young ranger said, Oh no, no, your name has to be on the reservation or you can't bring your car in. And I said, well, wow. Okay. Well, can I walk? And she's like, no, it's nine miles to the Valley. And I remembered that I had my one wheel in the trunk of my car and my one wheel for those of you don't know is an electric skateboard it looks more like it's like a snowboard with a big wheel in the middle. and I asked her, I said, well, can I use my, my one wheel, my electric skateboard? And she was. Shocked because she had just seen my age, which was at the time, 57 and, you know, I drive a very stayed, Prius. she had obviously made a lot of assumptions about me. And one of them was not that I had a one wheel in my trunk and that I could ride it. she asked her supervisor and the supervisor like, yeah, I mean, she can't bring her car in, but yeah, the human can go, which I thought was so funny. But I get it. It's, it's all about traffic, I guess. Anyway, so I went and I got on my one wheel and I one wheeled into the valley and it was beautiful. It was amazing experience. I keep my one wheel in my car for these, these, sort of eventualities, which never really come up and it's just often that I have some free time and I see like a little open space or a little bike trail and I want to get on it. And this time it really came in handy, but it was a great opening to the book because what it showed was, you know, Sort of our implicit assumptions about what people, what women especially can and cannot do after a certain age. I think if I had been a man, they would have been maybe a tiny bit surprised, but not really. But because I was a 57 year old woman, I really sort of all the rangers gathered around when I came back up in my one wheel. You know, to get permission to then go, go down the gate. They were asking me a ton of questions about the one wheel, but I could tell there were a lot of questions in their head about me. thing and the beautiful thing. And then when I say this in the book was what I inside, I was laughing the whole time because the person I was meeting in Yosemite Valley was about my age too. And she was way radder than me because she was about to base jump off of. of El Cap, and that's why I was going. I was going to interview her and also not base jump with her because that was the only, um, adventure I did not do in this book. by the way, the subtitle of the book is really explains the book. if that beginning has not, which is, it's called tough broad, but the subtitle is from boogie boarding to wing walking, how outdoor adventure improves our lives as we age.
Kush:I see electric skateboards in San Francisco all the time and, uh, they're more common here, I guess, than the, uh, the hallowed roads of Yosemite National Park. But I think even here I'll have to be careful on, uh, on what I think about the person riding that skateboard
Caroline:you know, the truth is you won't see a lot of women my age riding them. And I knew that. And that's actually why I wrote the book. I mean, I, this book came out of being on my skateboard and looking around and there were no women my age. I could see a couple of men my age and also when I was on my surfboard, I'd look around in, especially when it was winter surf and I see no, no women my age and no women older. And there were men my age and older hmm. when I flew my experimental planes, there was just hardly any women doing it, but again, men, my age and older. So I just thought, Oh, well, what's going on here? Is there something I don't know? Is there something I'm not supposed to be doing anymore? And I didn't want to give up my outdoor adventure life. And I had a feeling though, that it was actually key to fulfilling aging. So the book is really a quest, more than than my other books, which have been more statements, uh, or opinions. And this is a quest I actually don't know. And I do a lot of, a lot of research.
Kush:you have been breaking barriers and you have been dropping jaws through this quest of yours. I'm so excited and humbled to have you, join us today. I'm inspired, but yeah, just going back to that little story, curious, where do you get this? You know, this, this chutzpah as well most people who were raised in this country, in the US, most people, like you said, who might be around your age, they would not have thought to do that. I come from a country, I was raised in India and people are always looking for ways to get around. So I would not be as surprised if people would try and find ways to abandon their cars and get on their bicycles or, or whatnot. what is it about your personality that,
Pushes you to challenge convention or traditional thinking.
Caroline:I just think that I had my one wheel in the back of my car because I always wanted an opportunity to get on it. It's an opportunity to get outside and explore something. So it was more my sort of exploratory mindset, I guess, I grew up in the, I was born in 63. Those of us born in the sixties and grew, who grew up in the seventies really were used to kind of a feral childhood. it was pretty much a get on your bike and come back at dark kind of thing. And we lived in the country for most of our young lives. I have an identical twin and a younger brother. And that's what we did. We got on our bikes and we went swimming. We've got on our bikes or we, you know, we went sledding. We went, skating. We did things outside to pass the day. And so it's kind of second nature.
Kush:Have you always been. Outdoorsy and an adventurous, any favorite story of you growing up that, was perhaps, defining as you grew up and continue pursuing this life of, uh, adventure.
Caroline:Yeah. I don't know where, I got this idea that adventure was a value that I wanted to pursue, except for that. It was just, we did grow up in the country and it was clearly the way to have fun. Also we had national geographics that arrived at our house every month, I think it is. And they were those yellow spined magazines that everybody, many people. That I knew had and then we'd keep them and line them up on the shelf. So there are all these back issues going back years. And they were kind of the internet for us. And in it were lots of adventurers. And it just looked like the exciting life that I wanted to have. You know, my parents were not outdoorsy. But what they did do for us, is that they wanted us to be well rounded. It's not even that they wanted us to be brave or resilient or learn risk assessment like I think parents might do now. Those weren't part of the vocabulary. They wanted us to go outside and do things because they thought it would make us more social. It would, uh, get us out of the house and it would just make us more well rounded that when we were adults, we could pick and choose what we'd liked it because they had given us, you know, all these options. We also learned the flute and we also went to a church again, not because they were specifically religious, but they wanted to give us the choice later. So they laid that groundwork. So we got lucky that way, but I will say that my siblings are not like me. They don't live. An outdoor adventure life like I do though. They both love the outdoors. Uh, they don't have a practice of adventure, my sister walks and she swims outside. She does lots of open water swims, but yeah, so it's just sort of a haphazard intersection of. I couldn't really tell you how, but, I wanted to live a life of adventure.
Kush:I find a little parallel here. I was fortunate as well, where my parents also exposed me to, uh, a myriad assortment of things, including. Sending me to summer classes to do artsy things, including backpacking And I don't think they knew which would stick. the, uh, outdoorsy, Sports things stuck with me seems to me from what I have been learning about you, that you were also quite competitive. I read about, uh, how you were attempting to set the Guinness record. I'm curious, you know, in that spectrum of, adventure and, sports, where do you think is your, happy medium?
Caroline:not that competitive, actually. I mean, I think when I was young, I had a lot to prove, and so we all want to be first, and we all want to be noticed. And I have an identical twin who's very, very competent at pretty much everything, so, but neither of us want to be better than the other. But we also didn't want to be outdone by the other. So it was this really crazy, I mean, the way I describe my childhood with my twin is that we were both really good swimmers. I mean, relatively speaking in our tiny town, we were on the swim team and we would do, first of all, we would not swim against each other. We would, we pick different strokes, but we would always work out extra after practice. And we would swim across the lake and back, which is about a mile and a half. we were like 11 or 10 when we did this and routinely we'd stop in the middle of the lake and yell at the other one because they weren't swimming the straight line that we needed them to swim, which meant that if they were serpentining at all, they were getting more of a workout than we were and we couldn't have that. Like we had to be exactly equal because there was always this sense of like, you want to keep up with her. But you, you know, but you don't, you kind of want to be better, but you don't really want to be better. that would also hard. It was just this really fine line. I don't really think of myself as competitive, but again, I was always seeking exhilaration. So I guess when you try to set a world record because you want to be in the Guinness book of world records, which by the way, every kid I grew up with wanted to be in, was, it was, And you would flip through the pictures and see the person with the longest fingernails or the, you know, tallest person in the world. I mean, we just thought it was fascinating. So to be in, it would be just a kind of a, a stake in the ground, like something that really bragging rights. If you were, you know, a kid, I don't know if that counts as competition. I mean, I definitely did sports and I happen to be okay at them. Wasn't, you know, honestly, I wasn't super great, but I was very dogged. Like I trained, I did extra work in order to. So that in that way, I think sports are great, but I don't really do competitive sports anymore. Once I got out of school. that's not true. Okay. Okay. That's not When I was at Stanford, I did try out for the luge team. which is a competitive sport. And I think everyone knows what it is now, but back in 1985, nobody knew what luge was, it was, it was an obscure sledding sport where you lay on your back and you went down a, you know, a ramp, a shoot. And, uh, so I did do that after college for a little while, made the national team left. No, no, it's not. Wow. I promise. I a good luger. I crashed all the time, and that was my nickname, actually. Crash, I really wanted to make the Olympics. I just thought the Olympics were the coolest thing ever, and I had no skills, so I simply picked a sport where there were hardly anybody doing it, that's actually the key to my success in life, is I just find a niche very few people are in, and then of course, you know, you're always in the top 10, because there's really only 10 of you.
Kush:you found these niches, but maybe these niches also came to you because maybe there was this thing. natural aptitude you had for excelling in certain ways. Your response made me go down memory lane in two ways. One is, I am, maybe my generation we'd loved the Guinness book of records. And then next. I discovered accidentally over the last few days that your twin starred in one of my favorite TV shows from the 90s Nobody I asked here seems to know Baywatch for some reason, but I and my friends, we were huge fans. So,
Caroline:Okay. So this is the hilarious part about that is both my twin sister and I were obsessed with the Guinness Book of World Records. So I attempted on my own. Well, actually with a friend, but not with my twin sister when I was, I think, 13, 14, 15, something like that My sister actually broke a record because she was on Baywatch, which was the most watched show in the world at the time. And it made the Guinness book of world records. And don't you know that she logs that over me I think it's been broken since, but nevertheless, she was in. The lauded book.
Kush:well, she was breaking records and Caroline, you are, You're winning minds and you're inspiring a generation. moving on, you took your Stanford degree and your childhood of seeking adventure and then you became a firefighter in your 20s. What prompted you to do that? From what I could tell, your parents had white collar jobs. And your sister was a TV star and you took on this, slightly off the beaten path, profession
Caroline:I fell into it. I was a journalist by then and I was just, let's see, it was, I had been working odd jobs and I was volunteering at KPFA here in Berkeley I was the morning news anchor and there were all these stories come across my desk about the fire department at the time, which was like 1986 to 87. and how racist and sexist they were. And they were, under a court order actually. And they were just admitting their first women. They had a class of five. there was a new test coming up and I decided I would go take the test, but only as an undercover reporter. And I would ferret out racism and sexism because, you cannot ferret out racism and sexism in like a three hour test. It's just not the way racism and sexism works. That's why it's so insidious and powerful. It's woven way more deeply into institutions, but I was young and dumb and I took this test and I passed the first part and then I kept passing every single one. And by the end, they said, you've, you're now in. there was no story because there was no overt racism and sexism that I could talk about and I made it and I actually was so stunned and here's, here's where my own prejudices came up is it was probably my own classist prejudice. I couldn't see myself as a firefighter as a blue collar worker, and I didn't want my dad who had paid for my education. I just felt. But what I did is I deferred and then I went off and did some adventures. I think I quit my job at the time and then did some adventures and came back and the 1989 earthquake happened and I was here for that. And I started to read all the stories of bravery and compassion and smarts that the San Francisco fire men showed. And I realized, Oh, come on, like you are as narrow minded as you're claiming they are by just painting them with this broad brush. It's a terrible institution and also by then I'd really kind of fallen in love with what firefighting was, which was basically getting paid for adventure, which is why I wanted to be a journalist in the first place. So, I call back the department and I said, I'd like to take the job and. So I went in, uh, it was the 15th woman and there were 1500 men. I'm so lucky because it was an amazing job with really, uh, incredible people, brave people, honorable people, some bad people, but of course that's the way it is everywhere. and it was, uh, really a coming of age for me,
Kush:sounds like quite, quite the incredible coming of age story. What I'm sensing about you a little bit is you don't just, when you think about, people doing different things, extraordinary things, you're not content by just. hearing about them or reading about them. Maybe your personality calls for you to go and seek and try and experience those things yourself, talking about your book. Now that the heroes, or shall I say the she ros that you write about, it's full of these heartwarming stories, you know, full of, Full of these people of all backgrounds. Where did you go to find these Renaissance women? how did you discover them
Caroline:the book is really about. How I can find fulfilling aging as I neared my 60s and onward and how outdoor adventure would fit into that. And I did a lot of research before I set out to interview these women, mostly because I was going to kind of huck myself into the interviews, like the paraglider that I was, but the pandemic happened. And so we were in lockdown, I couldn't interview anybody. So what I did was I did a lot of research on what we need as we age and about aging in general, which was great because I came into each adventure knowing where I would kind of want to put it, how it would, you know, fulfill this aging need that we would have. So for instance, well, here's what happened is like, I realized as I was. outside and I didn't see anybody my age out there with me again, like I said, there were men my age out there. what I realized is that it was the toxic messaging that women get about our own aging that was keeping us from going out there. I don't know what that messaging is for men. This is also a book for men. They can learn a lot about how important it is to stay outside as we age. But again, I was seeing men out there so I knew that the messaging was different and then specifically that we're frail, that we can only really hope for a future of, guarding our frail bones and our cognitive decline and we're boring. And when I was doing my research, I was interested in this mindset because I thought it was the biggest reason I didn't see women out there. And what I found, Kush, was this amazing science that said, the way we look at our own aging predicts how well we age. So what that means is if you have a negative view, if you think aging is a time of diminution and frailty and Cognitive decline. You actually have a much higher chance of, of being frail and on a cognitive decline earlier. So they've done studies you have a better chance of a cardiac event earlier, cognitive decline earlier, and the opposite is true. So if you have a. really robust sense of your aging. If you think it's going to be a time of exploration and exhilaration, you're happier, you're healthier, and you live seven years longer. So that seemed huge to me. And so my quest when I went out was to find, I had a feeling that outdoor adventure was going to be An antidote to this negative mindset about our own aging because, and you know, this is a climber, what nature asks of us when we go outside is to be strong, is to use our cognitive faculties, is to be nimble, is to be exhilarated and fun and brave. All of that is flies in the face of what we're told about our aging. So I knew stepping outside. For women was going to be really transformative. And so what I was looking for was specific ways to do that, depending on the wide range of the way we age. So some of us age with, more physical limitations than others. So I knew that I couldn't just do, for instance, I went scuba diving with an 80 year old, but that's a lot of equipment to handle and to throw on your back. And Louise Holey is. Incredibly robust. She has injuries, but she's incredibly robust at 80. so I also went birdwatching because I knew that it was important to get outside, but I went and interviewed Virginia Rose who was in a wheelchair since she was 14. And so, as she told me, you know, we're all temporarily able bodied, Caroline. Soon enough, everyone will be where I am now. And so I knew that Virginia can go out in a wheelchair and bird watch, then most of us can do at least that. And so I wanted a wide range of outdoor activities, but of course, it's not, this book isn't profiles of all these women. It's a real look at fulfilling aging and how different. Ways of getting outside offer us that but the women I interview are amazing. No doubt about it. No doubt
Kush:These women that you interview are Badass. And, uh, yes, this book is about the broader theme of defying some of these, mindsets that are not helping us progress. But again, the fact that you shone light on these stories and these people, and not only that, you went and embraced that adventure with them yourself, I think brings me as a reader closer to your experience. Thank you. And I also agree that this is absolutely not a book just for women. This is a book for, for everybody. I almost wish that there was a book like this for men as well. And maybe there is, but I think that, you are opening the door here. One fun question to ask here is as you went about, discovering these profiles of people doing these different adventure sports, What sport helped redefine the definition of an adventure for you as well, where you were like, goodness, I had no idea something as kooky and as fun as this existed.
Caroline:You know, I went boogie boarding with a bunch of boogie boarders down in San Diego. They call themselves the wave chasers and they, they're made up of women between 60 and really the oldest was 97. And they're mostly in their seventies and eighties. And I went down there because I thought that it would be, you know, It was a simple sport that we could all learn at a later age and also that it was pretty forgiving. But I have to say that I'm a surfer, not a great one, but I have been surfing and I kind of was like boogie boarding. Like, is that really an adventure? is adventurous to me, basically. I mean, honestly, I got schooled throughout this book. Same with when I went birdwatching. Part of me was like, it's not really an adventure, but I really want everybody to get outside. So, but what I found was, well, let's take birdwatching actually. And then we'll go back to boogie boarding is that with birdwatching, you know, we're on a quest, you're anticipating the bird, you hear it, but you can't see it. There's the exhilaration. When you see the bird, there's all the uncertainties of the terrain and the weather. And there was this physical vitality because we actually, uh, Virginia wheeled, I walked six miles. It was a bird of thon that day. We went to seven different parks or so we logged 52 different species. I'd never been birdwatching before. And I realized, Oh, this is an adventure. As long as you're feeling exhilaration, exploration, pushing, pushing a little bit of some boundaries, learning something new and you're outside, it's an adventure. So I really had to, yeah. I had to redefine what an adventure was and I had to believe, and I believed it like I was kind of just paying lip service and then I, and the same happened when I went boogie boarding, what I went in the water and realized, Oh, this is, this is incredibly transformative. To be in the cold Pacific Ocean to be, um, with all these other people who are having fun on the same wave. And that's what the women told me. They said that when they became boogie boarders, especially if they didn't have an outdoor life before that, they upended their own expectations of what they could do. It changed them and it changed their outlook on their aging process and what was possible. It was really, really powerful. And I think the outdoors in particular does that because of, again, the uncertainty that the outdoors is makes you feel way more robust because you're making decisions all the time. And also the physical vitality of the cold Pacific ocean. You know, the day I went, it was actually windy and actually cold outside too. There's stingrays in the water and. You have it, you, you cannot possibly feel frail or boring when you're a boogie boarder. I had to really change my whole idea of what boogie boarding was about. And then, by the way, it's the actual simplicity of boogie boarding that makes it so beautiful. It's so simple that it cuts away All the sort of difficult learning process, which can great and it lays bare like this elemental fun and this aspect of play that we really forget about as adults, especially as women, there was just this kind of abandon in the water that was so unusual and so refreshing. And I think really that freedom was incredibly invigorating for these women on a life level.
Kush:So many amazing things. Jump out of, jump out at me from what you just said. Thank you for that. I'm a surfer myself, and I think I, I have a bit of your mild condescension as well. When I see people on boogie board. But I think the way you delightfully narrated that story in your book, you know, made me, uh, think about, some of the essentials of why we take up these sports and what you experience on a boogie board is, is in many ways, the same as surfing, you experience the, the beauty, the majesty, the power of the ocean, also the uncertainty because every wave is different. and then finally you also experience that camaraderie you have of sharing that with, uh, with good
kush_1_04-09-2024_123831:friends
Caroline:which is not as much in the, I mean, surfers, like they talk about the aloha spirit. I'm like, that is such baloney, boogie boarders. First of all, they weren't even most of them weren't even on the face of the wave. They were just doing the whitewater and they loved sharing a wave and that does not happen a lot. I mean, and certainly, you know, I mean, surfers talk a big game about the spirit, but boogie boarders really embody it, especially these women.
Kush:I have to agree that surfer, especially in the, uh, In the cold waters we have around where we live are usually not as friendly or as filled with like the, let's say the, uh, the goodness of the human spirit. I think these women seem to be more deserving of good waves and this group of women is a good example of that. Many of these people, again, profiled in your book, they seem to have had somewhat of a, uh, of a midlife awakening of sorts, you know, maybe they were not athletes in their prior lives and they discovered the sport and they have so much passion for it. Is there a particular reason why? Or is this just happenstance that many of these people are like that and you did not go and spend time with people who were, let's say, lifelong athletes and were just seeking to continue their performance with aging?
Caroline:I didn't mean, I wanted to have a wide variety, so I did want to have some people that had never had an outdoor adventure before, but I was surprised how many of these women hadn't. I mean, partly I wasn't looking for really good, you know, people. Athletes, because I wanted to them to be relatable. Uh, so nobody's an expert at what they do here. I mean, there's maybe one woman who was a champion runner and is now an orienteer, and I went orienteering with her. Um, but in general, they were just, they were all just sort of enthusiastic. I think it's for women, a weird thing happens in this culture where our identity Is all the, all the cultural currency that we had, which is basically our looks, our reproductive ability, um, often our, our job, uh, our caregiving skills, all that is changing. Our looks are changing our, we're through menopause and so, and the kids are out of the house and we're often at the apex of our career. I mean, and we are not really given a new identity. And I think men are, and I see that in the media. You know, you still have Indiana Jones running through the tombs at 75 doing the, his bad ass things. You have Liam Neeson beating up people. I mean, they still have some sort of cultural relevance, but for women, you're just grant a grandmother. I mean, and it's, it's this big gaping hole for women that could be a big opportunity, or it can be really disheartening. Um, and I think that not to be underestimated too, is the fact that we have been through perimenopause, and I looked a lot into the, chemical, the hormonal changes that. And what it does is that those extreme caregiving hormones that have served us very well, as we raise kids and, and nurture a partner and a relationship, um, those change and they, And it's not that we become less empathetic. It's that we turn more to ourselves and what we need. And so here we are in our late 50s, 60s, and we have this change in our hormonal system and our identity is pretty unformed. Nobody's given us a template of that is, that feels useful for us. And so into that, if you want, you can step and open up your life or you can freak out and it can all shut down. You can listen to the messaging, but I think that's why these women. did not have an outdoor background, but they, something spoke to them or they wanted to change. And I think a lot of them did this at an inflection point. Like for instance, Lorraine Voigt, who is a boogie boarder that I spoke to, she had no outdoor background before when at 60, it was the pandemic. And she saw these women in the waves and they looked like they were having fun. She didn't even like the ocean. She didn't like swimming. She knew how to swim, but she didn't like it. But she thought, what the heck? Because I think at that inflection point, there's a vulnerability of like, Oh, well, you know, how bad could it be? And, uh, she had had a really tough fifties and she just decided to try it and it changed her life. And she told me that boogie boarding changed life.
Kush:that needs to be the title of an entirely new book by itself. Changed boarding can change lives. One thing I know I appreciate about discovering something later in life. That perhaps one is not inherently gifted at is the deeper sense of gratitude. and fulfillment. I know this is for my surf journey. I didn't start surfing until my thirties and I learned in again, the, uh, tempestuous waters of San Francisco going around and it was a difficult journey. I mean, every little victory was harder, you know, every wave caught every skill mastered. And I just feel like, obviously, obviously. If I had learned early as a kid and I had gotten good, I'm not saying I would regret that, but I, I'm just as grateful today for everything I've gotten out of that because I feel that sense of accomplishment that maybe these women do as well because maybe these women never had the opportunity to, you know, jump up, I don't know, jump out of airplanes or try, uh, water sports when they were younger for all kinds of reasons. And now that they're discovering it, there is the sense of aha and joy that is so infectious.
Caroline:Well, it's also unencumbered by all those sort of the angst of youth. I think it's hilarious that you think thirties was old I in thirties and learning new things, I still like had that thing. I had to be really good. Who's looking at me. Oh, you know, How am I doing? But as I got older, I enjoyed things way more. Like all my adventures, I enjoyed way more, um, because I was older and was not encumbered by those. things. And in fact, when I talked to Vijaya Srivastava, who is also, she's from India, she had no background in outdoors because it was not expected of girls at that time. She said she had played badminton like a couple of times and that was it. She came to California and she still didn't have any outdoor activity, but she, her doctor said, Hey, you need to do some exercise. So I think you should learn to swim. She had a pool in her condominium complex and the doctor knew this. And Vijaya told me I'm really, I'm afraid of drowning, which of course, of course, she's afraid of drowning, but she was 68 and afraid of drowning. Like most people would be like, I don't think I'm going to swim. Give me something else, but yeah, I had a real sense of fun and she saw how much fun the kids were having she told me, I asked her, so did age make it harder to learn? And she said no, she thought age made, her age, advanced age made it almost easier because first of all, she didn't care if she looked in her bathing suit. And secondly, there was a sense of, like, this gratitude because it wasn't, this chance wasn't going to come by again. She called it the Cinderella moment, I think, you know, the clock is going to strike midnight and then that's it. You know, you're 68. It's not like you're going to, you're going to at 79 say, well, maybe I'll take swimming lessons again. I'll try again. I mean, she had this sense of urgency. That offered that made the whole process really rewarding and the really cool thing. And I saw this over and over is that once, once she had upended her expectation of herself, like, oh, wow, I can swim all these other things started open. She decided to try all these other things. She began to walk people notice that she was look more confident, look stronger. She felt better. And she started doing all these other things. There was a real magic to starting something late. And not only is the journey so joyous, but it, it really, when you upend your sense of yourself, suddenly all this other stuff is possible.
Kush:I will agree with that for most things, but not for surfing. I really do wish I'd started at six,
Caroline:Me too, Cause I'm such a bad surfer. I too learned, I learned, you want to know where I learned? I learned at San Gregorio, be. There is no channel yes. there is no, there's fricking no wave. I mean, I don't know, I guess some people, but I never caught a wave, probably for years. But you know what I did learn? I know how to paddle. So you can put me anywhere and people think I'll come in and people look at me with pity. Like, Oh my God, I can't believe you were out there for so long because basically what they see is me getting crunched by all these waves. But then I just paddle back out
Kush:yeah, no, I would agree that, uh, most of my Bay area surfs are usually suffer fests with the occasional, uh, ride thrown in to just keep me, uh, just teasing me enough to keep me coming back more. Caroline, again, love the theme of your book and the amazing people that you profile. Remarkable stories there. I am wondering on a broader theme. Whether you teased out some, some information on what are some of these women doing, you know, that is helping them succeed. This great story of that person, Vijaya, who learned how to swim in her upper sixties. What are some of these people doing that has allowed them to succeed in their chosen venture, where some other people are not succeeding, whether like, what, one thing you said right away was like, some people they might give up even before the start. They're like, Oh, you know what? I am a grandparent now. Why should I care about learning how to swim? But so that could be one reason right there, but are there some other things that people need to be doing better or differently where they can actually connect the dots between desire to go and learn a new. Outdoor sport and actually going out and, accomplishing that.
Caroline:Well, first you have to realize that I'm not just saying you need to go outside because it's fun. It is fun, but really, it's really, really good for you. just on a, biological level, going outside reduces your anxiety, reduces, your depression, which is very common as we age. The medicinal aspects of being in green space are well documented from the tree chemicals that are emitted that lower our, uh, that up our, uh, immune systems and lower cortisol to birdsong that lowers cortisol and rests the brain to even the, even the, the, the soft lines of. Nature, like a horizon line in stark contrast with the hard urban lines is much better for our brain and the fractal nature of outdoors is also really restful for our brain. And they say it's because. It mirrors the retinal structure, so when we are actually processing information outside, it's more restful. so our brain is often doing so much busy work, so much like, is this dangerous? Fight or flight type stuff when we're in a really loud urban environment, that it's bad for you. And they've shown that if you go outside and take a walk, you test significantly better on cognitive. and memory tests afterwards. So clearly going outside is really good for you. Just being in nature is good for you. So that's what I, I want to emphasize that. And then what do you, how do you pick something in order to, and of course we need to move. We need to exercise. We need to move. And people go to the gym for that. And that's great. But again, if you're a woman, you're not up ending your own expectations of yourself until you really get outside. Because again, of the uncertain aspect of the robustness that you feel, it's not just you're getting a heart rate up. You're dealing with cold water, dealing with cold, Air, you're dealing with wind and steep hills like that reinforces a sense, a newfound sense of confidence when you can do that, that kind of thing. So getting outside is amazing. That's the first thing. And then how to do it. Well, I covered another swimmer who went on her swimming journey and she did not finish it, but it's not like it was a loss. You know, that journey, she didn't end up swimming, but she also had a pretty full life and she had already found other outdoor And what I write about is how that, that journey in and of itself, as short as it might have been, still taught her things about herself were important. Now what Vijaya did right is that she enlisted a And I think when you enlist a friend, you have accountability. Um, but the other thing is, is that, What Virginia Rose, the bird watcher told me is you don't expect you to find your best self within your zone. So you have to know that you push your comfort zone a little, but it's the cool thing about going outside is that actually pretty seamless. not like you're like, okay, now I got to have a really hard day outside. No, you're going outside with a boogie board or you're going outside on a paddleboard and you're gonna see beautiful things. So it's not like this arduous thing. You're gonna get the medicine in a really great way. But I would say, and also, here's the other thing, Kush, that I feel very strongly about. You know, as women, we are, not really taught to be brave. We're not really our comfort zones in the same way that men are, or that, let's say, when we were girls. Boys are taught to push their comfort zone at a very early age. And not only that, is they're taught to lead with bravery. So they have an exploratory nature. But when I was growing up, We were always taught to be afraid. And the reason our parents wanted us to be afraid is they thought that would protect us. And I understand that if you're afraid, you won't talk to that stranger. You won't walk down that dark alley, but when you're afraid, instead of brave, you lose a lot of your agency. And so bravery could teach all those things, but better because then you learn risk assessment. You learn to push your comforts on you, learn confidence in your own decisions. Cause once you learn, Fear instead of bravery. You're always looking for other people to make decisions for you. And that is definitely not a safe situation. so women start with a little bit of deficit, especially women my generation, maybe engaging with parents, but women of my generation were taught to be afraid. So. When we go at this later stage in our life and we want to try something new and want to get outside, there's a big fear factor. And people say, well, I don't want to, what about the fear? And I say, what about the fear? Okay. There's life is scary. There's always a little fear. You don't have to huck yourself out of a plane. I'm not asking you, but I am saying ask a friend to go on a walk or Maybe try paddle boarding or go, there's a lake, go swim in that lake, even though there's seaweed at the bottom that you don't like, you know what I mean? Push your comfort zone a little and you'd be shocked at what happens in confidence. and your own expectations of what you can do
Kush:the key points I gather and you dropped so many one is getting outside is a reward in itself for all of the, uh, healing powers that nature affords us second, enlisting an accomplice, or, uh, A friend helps a lot. And then, and this is something I found for me and for many like me is that the journey or the process of learning can be just as rewarding and as important as mastering that sport or activity. And I think, I think maybe you will agree with this is that taking surfing, for example, that process of learning to surf in this enchanting environment that is the Pacific Ocean is a gift. Whatever we end up doing with that, there's always somebody who's better at that sport than we are. But the moments we spend, uh, fighting those waves, that is a privilege. So enjoying that process, I think has benefits that far exceed that sport itself. Maybe one, Last question here. any story that particularly jumps out at you from this beautiful book of yours where somebody defied the most extreme odds to partake in an adventure sport?
Caroline:let me just say one thing that one of the, uh, adventures here that, that really changed me a lot, if I could, it's when I went wing walking So wing walking that really weird sport where it's not even a sport. It's not even a thing. We don't do it. It's from the barnstorming days in the 1920s when they would take biplanes and do aerobatics when flying was very new and they had people walk on the wing. They would often transfer from one flying plane to another or from a moving car to a plane. they call it wing walking and they, they banned it years ago because of course there was lots of accidents because barnstorming meant that these biplanes would often fly through barns. But anyway, there's one school in the United States that does teach wing walking. And I got a video of this woman doing it and her name was Cynthia Hicks and she was 71 years old. And when I saw that video of her getting up on a wing, I said, I have to talk to her. And she told me, Caroline, you wouldn't believe the courage you feel when you get up on that wing. And so I realized I was going to have to go wing walking. And I didn't want to because I wanted to write about Cynthia and I wanted to write about this courage because we need courage as we age. And I didn't want to because I'm a pilot and why do I get out of a perfectly good cockpit? I don't know. But I took this class and then at 3000, get up in the plane, And I've practiced on the ground, going up on the wing, attaching to the King post in the middle. and we take off in this 3000 feet, I get up on the wing and I am not happy about this. And the wind is incredible. And I like, it's not wing walking, by the way, Kush, it's wing slithering, I think is the way I describe it. Wing crawling, wing. And then you get to the King post and you strap yourself in and then the pilot does. loops, barrel rolls, and hammerheads. And I went from being like the surliest of wing walkers to ecstatic. I mean, I was just amazed. And when I got on the ground, I was really curious what had happened because I, it was adrenaline, of course, some, but that wasn't all of it. And I went and did research. And what I realized I was experiencing was this concept that I think a lot of us know now because since I wrote the book, there have been books coming out about this, but at the time I knew nothing about this and it's called awe. I was awestruck. I was awe wondered, whatever the word is, I was in awe, and awe turns out is really good for you, and it's a situation that you, that we really, we, we sort of, um, we think of it as a religious, uh, word, people are often awed in religious experiences, but in fact, nature is an awe trigger. So when you look at the night sky, you feel all the eclipse. Everybody talked about the eclipse as being, you know, awesome. Just in all basically all is the feeling that you get in the presence of something bigger than you. So it's just, it's a mystery, a mysterious, Huge thing. And it's a feeling of like wonder and dread and fear. And what it does is according to scientists, they call it the reset button. It kind of opens you up neurologically because when you're in awe, you can't quite process what's going on. So you, you, there's no neural pattern that's being laid down. There's no pattern that's being that they're like, Oh, let's go to that old groove that we've, you know, cause we know what this is. Your brain, you become more open minded is what this is. is what scientists say. And so anyway, you don't, turns out that I realized, Oh, so awe is what I've been chasing for. So for many, many years, because I had noticed that I was less of a, like an adrenaline junkie, but I still love doing the things I did. I just was, I'd more wax poetic than be like, yeah, those terrible thermals I was in. Yeah. You know, I was like, yeah, I don't really like thermals anymore. It kind of get me a little gripped when I'm up there flying. So I realized it was awe. And I wasn't boring after all, you know, it wasn't becoming sedate or boring or old, quote, old, I was seeking off and turns out they did this amazing study here in San Francisco, where they asked people between the ages of 60 and 80 to go on. Uh, these 15 minute walks, they call them all walks because they asked the walkers to look at things with childlike wonder and they track these walkers over eight weeks and they found that their inflammation markers went way down. That inflammation is a sign of ill health and the walkers, the all walkers reported, self reported way lower. depression, way lower, uh, anxiety and higher gratitude and compassion, which is crazy, which makes sense. Oh, and turns out we live in a world of anti awe devices right now, which is basically our phone, which narrows our focus and makes us feel in power and control. we need to put ourselves in more awe situations and going outside is the way to do this because it is naturally awe inspiring for us. You can also cultivate all by just really, you know, when you're out there on a pretty flat day. You can still be awestruck by the tiny little rollers coming in because they're beautiful or the pelicans who are taking full advantage Or maybe if you see dolphins or just the the fact that you're in the Pacific Ocean and the city's behind you is pretty great So yeah, I was that that experience changed me because I really knew nothing about all I went into this book Not thinking all was anything. didn't know what it was and yet it became a big part of why we should go outside
Kush:love that because I had a similar epiphany myself and somebody helped me or rather something helped me articulate that what I felt and I was chasing while climbing or surfing or whatnot outside was again that feeling of smallness. Against the majesty and beauty of nature, I took this workshop at Esalen a couple of years ago, and you probably know this person, uh, Dasher Keltner. He, I think, wrote a book on all recently
Caroline:Yeah and I quote him in the book too. He had book hadn't come out, but I found him in my after this yeah, amazing You got workshop with on purpose Esalon want to go to You're like, oh, named Dakar, go to his.
Kush:I would say did want to go to Esalen and a workshop there because all the workshops are so highly, uh, highly rated. And I think this one just kind of stood out because I read the description and I. Was awed for lack of a better term that, uh, that somebody would help us understand, uh, the significance of awe because I, I sort of felt that what I was seeking and connecting with while I was out in nature was this articulation everybody go read, Caroline's book and then number two, read Dasher Keltner's book, because, I think it helps us understand, again, another, powerful way to articulate what mother nature and the outdoors offers us. You know, we are at an hour and time is running by so quickly. I feel I could keep you the whole day if I could, uh, coming back to you a little bit. One thing I wanted to understand is the focus on being outside of looking for adventure, looking for, or doing activities with sometimes not all the time involve some risk taking. Now, if our goal is healthy aging and appreciation of life and things such as that, would it not be easier to let's say chase a more, you know, conventional fitness program, you know, go and do Zumba at the park and play tennis and lift weights? And, you know, get your outdoor fix by going for a walk. Would that not be a little safer and not yield the same benefits? I want you to challenge my question because, because I chase sometimes risk taking things myself. So yeah, two part question. One is what are the sports you're doing today? And then second is why should we be choosing. Sometimes outdoor sports, which have some risk over more conventional, uh, fitness activities.
Caroline:people talk about risk a lot, I think risk is relative. Like if you want to talk about to Sean Broekman, who's the base jumper about, she does a lot of other things too. She heli skis. You know, she, she see kayaks. I mean, she does a wide range of, she runs, she does a wide range of things. So she understands like the wide range out there of risk. And I would say, yes, of course, base jumping has a higher risk, but it's still relative. I mean, she's still going to prepare so that she minimizes risk as much as possible and optimizes. the beneficial parts, nobody wants to get hurt or, or die, but we are seeking those rewards. And sometimes that reward is to push ourselves just a little bit in order for us to, again, upend our expectation of what we can do. which is so powerful and opens up the rest of our life. Now that doesn't mean you need to go base jumping. It might mean you simply go birdwatching. when I interviewed Virginia Rose, I met a guy named Eric who was a lot younger than us. He was 35, but he'd had a very debilitating form of MS for a long time. And he was pretty much housebound. until he read a book and it featured birdwatching in it. He started to become curious about birds, but he started in his kitchen. He was in a wheelchair. He just looked out his window, but birds brought him outside. Slowly he put out feeders. Then he went to his back porch, then his backyard and his love of birds kept pushing those boundaries. I mean, I don't think risk. It's it's he wasn't trying to his his boundary pushing wasn't as much. I mean, of course it felt risky. He can't even hold binoculars. So for him, it was risky, but it was the reward was so huge because he was getting closer to birds. And when I went on that six mile bird a thon with Virginia Rose, he also was on that. And so that's how he. He came out to his adventure over a period of years and hard one. And so it's all in the eye of the beholder. None of us can tell you what your adventure is going to be or what pushing your comfort zone is. And I want to say again, like risk is a part of life. When we take pharmaceuticals that a doctor gives us, cause they say they're going to make us feel better. Have you seen how long list of side Vomiting, diarrhea, don't drive that big car. I mean, it's, I mean, and none of us, we still take that pharmaceutical. And I guess the, because we've made calculation that it's worth somehow, or we're ignoring it. I don't know. And I feel like you calculate the risk because you know that the reward, which is The beauty of nature, the possible awe, the physical vitality, the exhilaration, I mean, the list goes on. The community, I mean, the purpose, the, the novelty, like all these things that are so good for you. You're not, you're not being dumb about it. You're not just going to go base jumping. You're going to pick something that risk is part of it, but it's, it's just part of the experience because it's part of life. I'm telling you that this hard one me because I a lot of I did adventures when I was young was for that feeling of freedom. That sort tightrope that you almost yourself, I'm not I'm not proud of that I thought it was character building. I thought it was exhilarating and But now what I what I look for is I can be I can feel adventurous just taking my paddleboard just a couple blocks down here bay and it in water and Watching the pelicans and yeah, maybe I'll go paddle to the Bay bridge and that's cool, but it's definitely not really, I mean, risky. Oh, the other thing Kush is I really want people to. A lot of people don't really assess risk correctly. I mean, they really go to, we could die like right away. I, I, I play this game with my friend and it's in the end of the book. We call what it's we call it. What's the worst that could happen game? Because my friend tends to be a little bit more anxious than I am when we go outside, but she's my adventure partner most of the time. So, and she'll. So we, we went stand up paddling on a moonless night in order to find bioluminescence in Tamalus Bay. And a lot of that is, seems scary, but you really break it down, none of None of going kill get, you might, let's say the tides are, we had already calculated the tides, but let's just say they pushed us, you know, somewhere terrible. We couldn't find our way back. Okay, well, so you're uncomfortable. You sit on your board for eight You're not going to die. You're not going to get hypothermia because you have a wetsuit. You know, you're not going to starve to death. I mean, when people down what the actually is, you'd be how benign surprised doing
Kush:The calculation of risk is often. irrational for many of these things. The, uh, the Tomales Bay bioluminescence example is a good one.
Caroline:Even the wind walking, Kush, if you really broke it down, It sure seems, I mean, of course, if in this weird way, you jettisoned yourself, you gave into the impulse to like, Step off the wing, which I think probably in some part of our brain, there is just like when you step, uh, go to the edge of a cliff, really, I mean, how we even had a rope, tie tied to the plane. So if we did fall, which, by the way, no one's ever fallen, uh, you know, we weren't going to fall to the ground. So yeah, you really have to take some time look at It's
Kush:what is, uh, spurring you these days, what activities are firing in your belly
Caroline:Well, I, Learned to fly a gyrocopter for the book because I was interested in how novelty is important as we age because it tends to drop off. I mean, very few people learn something new in their later life. So I learned to fly a gyrocopter. I was already a pilot, but it was a very different machine. It's a very odd looking machine. It's like a helicopter, a tiny little helicopter with an open cockpit, and I've really fallen in love with it to be honest. And so I fly, I fly my gyro a lot, um, and the other thing is a friend of mine's learned to sail, so I sail with her. I don't really want to learn to sail, but I like this whole new medium of being out on the ocean, I'd like to learn to navigate, uh, and Yeah. So I'm a, you know, I have my one wheel and my electric bike
Kush:and and you have the, this drive to go and learn new things? Which is this? Unifying theme that I hear from, let's say, accomplished overachievers that I speak with this, um, world class climate that I just interviewed, and he may be on the show before you, Hans Loreen, multiple speed records on El Capitan. And he actually helped launch this challenge. And I think it's, it's, uh, it's a website and, uh, the moniker, I think is it's either TNT try new things or dynamite DHT, which is do hard things. And it posts different challenges for people to go and do. Some things could be easy for one person, but could be very new and difficult for somebody else. But I think the, the goal is to try something which is new. And I think one factor that he was sharing was that when one does try and learn new things, it can actually help transfer this learning process to things that one is Already doing. And, uh, it's really interesting that whole neurochemistry thing with learning. how have you experienced, let's say any other mental and emotional benefits yourself from maintaining this active lifestyle over the years? We have talked about a couple of things, but any other benefits that you find? In yourself or benefits that have come to your community.
Caroline:I mean, I do think that, uh, what I was talking about, that sort of mindset, people say, Oh, you're 60. And I say, yeah, I'm 60, but usually I'm standing like next to my one wheel with my surfboard or with my gyrocopter. I look like I'm 60, but what they can't, it. Compute is that it's a 60 year old woman who's doing these things. there's this kind of, virtuous feedback loop. You know, somebody is admiring that you're, you're 60 and you're supposed to be kind of decrepit and there you are on a skateboard and that feels good. You know, I want there to be a time when people aren't, are no longer surprised that a 60 year old is on a skateboard. A skateboard or flying a gyro copter.
Kush:I agree. That's the kind of reality I am dreaming of myself. Now, just some questions that I like to ask some of the people I speak with who are accomplishing amazing things with their routines and their lifestyles as they're getting older. Any specific types of workouts, let's say for strength, mobility, for cross training, et cetera, that allow you to keep performing?
Caroline:You know, I've always lifted weights because I was a rower in college and then it was a firefighter and I've just continued to lift weights. So I, and I lift heavy weights. I mean, you know, obviously there's a lot of women stronger than me, but I'm not lifting these baby weights. Um, so I think just being a strong in general has always helped me. Um, and I work out. I work out basically six days a week. I take a one day off cause you're supposed to. Um, and that really, that really helps not only on a strength level, but on a kinetic level, just being able to be more in touch with my body when I move through the world. It's important, especially as we age.
Kush:great. And what kind of nutrition do you provide yourself to be able to, uh, to work out hard and to perform hard and nutrition, not just in terms of your meals, but any supplementation that helps you as well? So I'm vegan and I've been vegan for probably 15 years now. Um, and I was vegan when I was young, but it was a lot harder then. And now, I mean, I think there's just no doubt that being vegan is really, um, up to my energy and health. And I do take one, a Vega protein powder once a day, just to make sure. And I, I take kind of the average amount of, I don't take a lot of supplements. Um, and I don't really worry a lot about what I eat. Um, I'm, I happen to have a very muscular frame, probably from just lifting weights for so long. And, uh, and the being vegan is really meant that I, uh, I worry less about things like cancer and being dairy free, I think is really important. I'm vegan actually for the animals and for the planet, but it's just the side benefit is that I feel, uh, you know, pretty unstoppable. Caroline, there are many things I Like about you, but this thing I absolutely love that you're vegan. I am almost entirely plant based myself. One day I will hopefully go vegan and One thing that I keep hearing from people is the importance of maintaining muscle, which you are doing, but also being able to provide enough protein to one's diet. And people sometimes challenge vegan diets because they don't get enough protein. So is this something that you would like to either debunk or, or you would like to provide, information on how you're able to, to, uh, provide all the nutrients, including protein as part of your, uh, daily, uh, nourishment.
Caroline:All I can, all I can do is quote the strongest man in the world when he was quoted on that documentary about vegan athletes, uh, where he, people said, how can you be strong as an ox and, uh, and not eat meat? And he said, what do you think an ox eats? all I can tell you is that I have a, you know, I feel really healthy and I think we are most, we've come from a mostly plant based, um, ancestry because it was always hard to get meat. And, You know, and I definitely think dairy is really bad for you. I mean, there's no question that there's only, there's one function for dairy cows milk, and that's to make a calf grow to be a thousand pounds in about three days. So if you want to ingest that, and also not to mention the antibiotics, but also, and also the, the, the terrible like, um, health conditions, which seep into that milk with the pus and the, so it's, it's, um, you know, I, I don't really try to defend my lifestyle because. If you don't, all I can tell you is that I, if you want to arm wrestle me, I will do that with you. If you want to swim, oh, how about this? Try to swim, uh, against my twin sister, because she does 11 mile races and she's been vegan for almost 25 years. So if you want to talk protein, I don't, can't give you the numbers, but let's get in the water and let's see who has the most endurance and stamina and strength.
Kush:Great answer. Just some final fun questions before we wrap it up. On the topic of food, what is one meal that you could eat every day?
Caroline:okay. Well, there's a meal that I am eating every day. It's a takeout meal. I'm sorry. And I don't usually like to like, uh, you know, um, promote any corporation, but there's a salad place in the mission and I get a particular salad. With tahini dressing. It's basically got like falafel and edamame and, um, beets and it's a wide beret and then it has this lemon tahini dressing and I swear to God, I've eaten it every single night and my friends can attest to this hooked a lot of people on it.
Kush:sounds delicious
Caroline:Yes.
Kush:Caroline, in recent memory, what has been the best hundred dollars that you've spent?
Caroline:the best hundred dollars that I've spent. I mean, I flew my, um, hold it. Let me, let me think. Oh, okay. I just upgraded my one wheel. That was more than a hundred dollars. I will tell you, but uh, putting a hundred dollars into something that I really love. Uh, felt good, you know, to spend some money on it's frivolous but I felt like I wanted to upgrade a little bit. So you'll see me on my new one wheel soon
Kush:Beautiful. And, last question. In the last five years, say, what has been perhaps one routine habit or behavior which has most impacted your life?
Caroline:in the past five years. I I would say that in the past 10 years, since I've had my dog, I go out every twice a day and walk my dog. It used to be a lot longer and it's a, it's a, such a great practice because. I don't, I bring my phone, but I don't, I really try never to look at it because I feel like my dog realizes when I'm looking at my phone and it's not really fair to her. Cause otherwise this is time we can spend together. And it's really made me, um, appreciate walking more, which always seemed a little. Boring to me. I know. And, uh, but it's, it's not. And walking with a dog is so great. And I let her stop and sniff and it's, I'm not actually sniffing, I promise, but I'm also stopping when she is and looking around. And, um, I, I see people who walk their dogs and they're constantly on their phone and I don't know what their life is. Maybe they don't. Maybe at home, they don't have a chance to look at their phone, so now they get to, I don't want to judge too much, but I do feel like it's this opportunity to go, to really slow down and, and, um, kind of pay attention to your environment in the service of what you have to do, which is walk your dog for an hour, twice a day, and that's really been a great practice. Uh,
Kush:we are lucky. I have a, I have a small dog and, uh, who loves walking and stopping and sniffing, though I also, uh, I'm not confessing to doing the same myself. But yes, we also like to live in a place with the weather we have, which makes getting outside fun and beautiful. Before we go, Caroline, you just wrote this amazing book and you also wrote some other great books. Gutsy Girl is also on my bookshelf that I intend to read. Where can people find your books? And learn more about you. And also you have this whole beautiful event schedule. Where can people find some of this information if they ever want to, uh, interact with you in, in person?
Caroline:well, I could be found through my website, um, carolinepaul. com. There's a contact there. And then, and there's also events there though, no longer in the Bay Area, but I'm heading to Des Moines next week. So if you, cause I'm going to be interviewing the oldest BMX bike racer, Miss Kitty, Kitty Weston Nauer, who's in the book. Uh, we're going to be on, on, uh, at a bookstore together. And, um, then I go to the East coast, but, um, and then I'll be at the outside magazine festival, outside magazine is putting on their first festival in December, excuse me, June 1st. So I'll be doing a talk there. And I think I'm hanging out with Rebecca Rush, who's this incredible, um, mountain biker and then Juliet Starrett, of course, of, uh, the ready state, uh, fame. And who just put out a book with her husband, Kelly Starrett, uh, built to move, which was on the New York times bestseller list. And I think we're, we might be doing a talk together. Anyway, I'm, I'm be really psyched if I could be in their gilded presence, but there's lots of other incredible athletes. Ray Wynn Grant will be there outdoors. Yeah, it's going to be a, it's a real honor to, to be there. I was, I'm actually in Outside Magazine this month. Yeah. Which is hilarious. Cause I, I read, used to read Outside Magazine so much after. National geographic kind of fell away and, uh, for adventures. And then, well, there I am this month, April, March, April. so yeah, sorry, Caroline MB Paul that I, sorry, Caroline Paul. com is my. Uh, website. And then I can be on, I'm seeing on Instagram at Caroline M as in Michael B as in Bravo, Paul,
Kush:Thanks for all those links. We will put those links in the show notes, and if people were to, wanted to buy your book, can they find those links on your website or where's the best place to buy your books so you get the most benefit from the purchase?
Caroline:Well, I, I love independent bookstores. So go to your independent bookstore, your local bookstore. They'll order it if they don't have it on the shelf,
Kush:Folks, go read Tough Broad and, uh, Caroline, you are one Tough Broad. Thanks for, uh, coming on the show. It's been a delight. We hope you're as inspired by Caroline Paul, as we were remember, it's never too late to embrace adventure and discover the joy of the outdoors. Pick up a copy of tough broad. Find your own adventure and share your experiences with us. Thanks for joining us. This is. from the each list athlete podcast. Get outside, find your adventure. Stay ageless. And come back and see us next time.
